Was Poly Podcaster Fling a Dangerous Thing? | Feedback Friday | Jordan Harbinger (2024)

1022: Was Poly Podcaster Fling a Dangerous Thing? | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback. Friday producer, my co conductor on the pain train, shoveling coal into this fiery oven of life conundrum. Gabriel Mizrahi,

[00:00:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: the pain train. So that's what you take after you, uh. What disembark from the do cruise

[00:00:20] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly.

Just board the batsh*t box car to the next dumpster. Fire Chugg it chug a dos. Dos. I'm done. I'm never doing that again. I promise I'm never doing that again. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

That's what happens when I don't get enough sleep. Mm-Hmm. I do stuff like that. Mm-Hmm. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from Russian spies to cold case homicide, investigators, astronauts, and rocket scientists.

This week we had Constantine Sola. This guy, man, this guy was so interesting. Gabriel. So he fled Russia. He is a YouTuber. He fled Russia. Mm-Hmm. Used to do all these videos about what Russia was really like and during the invasion and all this kind of stuff. And then he fled the draft 'cause he doesn't want to go to war in Ukraine.

He's, he's family there and stuff. Now he runs expat meetings for Russians and the KGB is chasing 'em and stuff like, it's really just a quite an interesting story, quite a unique perspective on Russia. We also did a skeptical Sunday last week on the placebo effect and the no SIBO effect. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, and compare the show to various modes of zany transportation.

I guess, I don't know. Before we kick off, Gabe Random news. I am going to Georgia next week to Georgia.

[00:01:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wait, the peach state or the country that Russia invaded?

[00:01:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. No, not the peach. The one that Russia invaded. Oh wow. So it would be weird if I got excited about flying to Hartsfield Jackson and airport. I know.

I was like, why are you

[00:01:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: getting so excited about that? It's just like, okay,

[00:01:51] Jordan Harbinger: I do love peaches, but that's not, that's not it. You do love a good peach. That's such a dad fruit too. Stone fruit in general is just dad fruits. It's a country that I've, I, I actually have kind of always wanted to check out and I studied a little bit of Georgian in undergrad, which is funny.

It's not like we had classes. I just hired the boyfriend of this girl that I knew to teach me Georgian. 'cause he was Georgian. Very on brand. Very on brand, very unbrand, very random. And I'm going this time because the guy that I lived with when I was an exchange student in the former East Germany is getting married.

Why is he getting married in Georgia? Well, his girlfriend, he lives in Slovakia, his girlfriend is from Belarus. And I invited them to come visit me for Christmas and they were like, cool, let's do that. Oh, the embassy said she needs to extend her passport to apply because of expiration dates. So she goes to the Belarusian embassy to apply and they're like, yeah, we're not gonna renew your passport here.

You have to go to Belarus and do it. Okay. And she's like, okay. So she calls her family in Belarus and she's like, I'm coming back to visit 'cause I need to renew my passport. And they were like, don't come back. They're making it so that if you have a degree especially and you come back, you can't leave.

Oh wow. They want you to get a job in Belarus. Wait. They just stop you from leaving. They just won't give you your travel documents. They won't let you out. Oh my God. That's so scary. Yeah. I don't know if it's everyone. Apparently people her family knew have just not been allowed to leave again if they live abroad.

So what does she do? So I told my brother, uh, I call him my brother 'cause I don't have a brother and he doesn't have a brother. And we lived together for a couple years. I was like, Hey man. You should just get married 'cause you're fricking 42 anyways, by the way. And he is like, all right, all right. So he goes, which is a great reason to get married.

Documents and pressure. Very romantic. Yes. Strong advice. Trust me, I know what I'm doing. So he goes to get the documents together to get married, and turns out she needs a document that says she's not already married. Guess where she has to get that document? Belarus or the embassy. So she goes to the embassy to get that document and they tell her, and I quote, you shouldn't be marrying some foreign guy anyway.

You should just go back to Belarus and get married. Wow. He said they're not giving her the document. Oh wow. Can you imagine like that is peak authoritarian. Like, I'm gonna tell you what to do with your life, even though you didn't ask. And no, I'm not gonna do my job.

[00:03:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Truly, also, vaguely Kafkaesque in a very boring, bureaucratic way.

Very much so. What are they gonna do?

[00:04:05] Jordan Harbinger: So that's why he's getting married in Georgia because he basically calls me in a panic at like four o'clock in the morning one night, and he's like, what are we gonna do? This thing happened. I'm like, calm down. Let's find countries where you can get married without documents.

Surely that exists. So I Google it. The top countries where people get married without documents are Australia. Good luck getting there from Slovakia with a Bellus passport. The United States, same problem. That's what started the original thing. Anyway, she couldn't get here for Christmas, so we knew that was out Iceland, which might've been kind of tricky.

And Georgia, which was a short flight away. Wow. And they'd already been there on vacation to some winery that they liked and they were like, alright, so they're going to Georgia. They booked the whole winery and they're like, I'm inviting 30 people. You one of them see you in August. Fascinating. Yeah. So what happens if they get married?

It helps them or what? Then I guess what he'll do since he's German, is he'll apply for some sort of spousal, whatever the equivalent of green card sort of citizenship kind of status documents are. Then when they find out she's from Belarus, they'll probably be like, oh, well she can't get up. I mean, it's gonna be play by ear, talk to my lawyer situation.

But I assume she can't get new documents and they have to have some sort of understanding that that's not possible. 'cause what do you do if you're a dissident and you're gonna go back and they're gonna arrest you? It's sort of the same thing, right? They don't tell North Koreans, Hey, you don't have valid travel documents.

You gotta go back to Ye Yang and apply.

[00:05:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Got it. Yeah. So lawyer, not your lawyer, but get a lawyer. Yeah.

[00:05:30] Jordan Harbinger: So they're gonna get a lawyer and do some immigration stuff and since she's a spouse, at that point she'll end up with some German travel document that makes everything a whole lot easier. But long story short, they are definitely not gonna make it for Christmas.

I have a, I'm imagining a nice bureaucratic nightmare is ahead of them. Got it. Yeah.

[00:05:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: So you're going to the wedding?

[00:05:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So I'm gonna, the wedding, and I asked him if he had a photographer and he's like, yeah, and he loves video stuff. And he's like, yeah, I wanna film a bunch of it. I got a drone. And so I.

Also, I've upgraded the studio equipment. I've got these black magic six K full frame cameras, and I bought another one. And I'm like, I'm just gonna bring this. And I've been sort of low key secretly taking cinematography courses online, learning how to use the camera, set up shots, set up the gimbal, got a cage for it, like learning all these different things.

And Da Vinci Resolve, which is the software you use. So I'm gonna do a bunch of interviews with her family, his family, the friends, and then I'm gonna color correct them, whatever, cut it together. My gift to them is gonna be interviews with her whole family and his whole family and all of the friends that are there at this winery.

[00:06:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's awesome. Yeah. That's such a great gift. They're gonna love

[00:06:34] Jordan Harbinger: it. Yeah. 'cause no one's doing that, right? There's gonna be photos, but there's not gonna be any audio video at all. Other than what I create on the low.

[00:06:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, can I come? I wanna go to this wedding. This sounds

[00:06:43] Jordan Harbinger: dope. I wish I could just be like, yo, I'm bringing a plus one.

And I swear to God we're not. This is, my wife couldn't make it, but I brought my friend Gabriel. That's not odd at all.

[00:06:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: This sounds like a feedback Friday letter. Mm-Hmm. Question one. Yeah. I mean, if they're getting married for paperwork, I feel like you should be able to invite me as your extended professional poly, you know?

That's

[00:07:04] Jordan Harbinger: right. And write it off. Definitely. There's a seed of wisdom in this Gabriel. There's a seed of wi. How do you feel about learning Da Vinci resolve?

[00:07:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know what the irony is? That would actually help my career immensely. Yeah. To learn how to, because I don't know how to use that software, but a lot of people, editors, cinematographers stuff, you use it.

It's usually used for color correction, right?

[00:07:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's amazing. It's really good. It's just, it's quite easy so far, and I've taken no courses on it. It's just sort of intuitive. That's awesome. Anyway, most people don't care, but I'll be back after a trip to Tbilisi and wine country in Georgia unless Russia invades again, in which case you'll see me on CNN wearing a blindfold.

Alright. Gabe, what's the first thing outta the mailbag?

[00:07:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. A little over five years ago, I started listening to a popular podcast. Later that year, I became active on the fan page for the show and I started crushing on the host.

[00:07:52] Jordan Harbinger: Hold up. Wait. Is this about law? Obviously it can't be about Gabe.

[00:07:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sadly, it's It's not about you or me. Okay. As you're about to find out if you weren't so goddamn thirsty for attention. Jesus, George.

[00:08:05] Jordan Harbinger: Sorry. Yeah, that's my pathological narcissism peeking out. I gotta go text Dr. Romney.

[00:08:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: At the time, my husband and I had an ethically non-monogamous relationship. At any opportunity, I openly confessed my thirst teased and invited podcaster to slide into my dms.

We started texting regularly, talked on the phone daily and quickly developed a strong liking for each other. He's about 20 years older than I am. He was previously married, didn't have any kids. He's in a long-term, open relationship. We exchange stories about our lives, about what I liked most about his podcast.

In fact, I think he introduced me to the Jordan Harbinger show. I hope he isn't listening to this. Yeah. And that was in the letter. That was not my commentary. No,

[00:08:44] Jordan Harbinger: he probably is, and he is probably panicking right now, which somehow I'm here for it.

[00:08:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe

[00:08:49] Jordan Harbinger: he's eating it up. Maybe. Hard to say. Maybe. Yeah, continue.

[00:08:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, podcasters be,

[00:08:53] Jordan Harbinger: I do. So that's interesting. I wonder if I know this person, Gabe. It's gonna be hard to come down on this guy if it turns out he's the problem. I mean, he's promoting our show, so I'm kind of caught between a rock and a hard place.

[00:09:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: What a conundrum. Okay, so she goes on. At the time my husband was pressing me to have kids.

I wasn't ready. And it had become a topic of many arguments. It was comforting to talk with someone who was a great listener by profession. I had all the butterflies that I've now learned are red flags.

[00:09:18] Jordan Harbinger: Mm. Yeah. Those butterflies do come in a few varieties, don't they?

[00:09:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: The following month, he had a business meeting in my state and we talked about meeting up for the weekend.

I was really excited and it was very obvious that I liked this new guy a lot more than I was letting on. This turned my husband on that I would get to meet someone I actually fancied man. These poly

[00:09:36] Jordan Harbinger: slash open folks, they are just built different, they are, I could not do this zero judgment whatsoever.

I'm, I'm, I am just not cut out for this at all. I could never do that.

[00:09:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Up to that point, my husband and I had had threesomes. There was some cuckolding and hot wife play, but my husband was always present. Meeting this new guy would be the first time that I would be venturing out alone. And the first time that I expressed any real interest in someone outside of our marriage.

So understandably, my husband felt insecure.

[00:10:05] Jordan Harbinger: I got a Google Hot wife place, so, so, you know, back to my earlier point, I guess maybe they're not built that different, if he's insecure about it, like everybody else would be in this exact same situation. Right. It's fascinating, man. I wanna believe that people in alternative relationships like this are just super evolved and they're open and they're, you know, like uncontrolled.

But it seems like whenever you scratch the surface of what's going on. Just, I'm speaking from my friends experience, people I know there's all these very normal human feelings just beneath the surface.

[00:10:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I know. You mean like insecurity and jealousy and all that?

[00:10:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Envy fear. I got a buddy. He was like, yeah, we're totally into that.

And then like I remember him and his wife fighting about it constantly and I'm like, are you really both into that? It seems like you like it and she hates it and tolerates it because she loves you and like sure enough, they're divorced. But anyway, I mean your wife is thirsting after this other person with a podcast no less the 10 inch of media platforms.

I mean, how is that not gonna sting? I mean, to each their own. I'm not, what's that phrase that I hate yucking on? Somebody's yum. I hate that phrase Gabe, by the way. Oh, it's so terrible. It's just cringey and gross graphic. Can we not talk about fetishes like a bunch of preschoolers? I know. Why do we do that?

We're prudes. That's why I just struggle to understand what poly people do with these very normal human feelings and how they don't go. Yeah, this is fun sometimes, but also it really hurts. Maybe I'm again, a middle-aged dad sitting here wearing Hoka and just living in the burbs, living my boring life in the burbs.

[00:11:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, to your point, she goes on. He finally agreed, and as the day approached, I could tell that he was having a change of heart, but I had to talk him into these types of arrangements in the past, and he's always thanked me and we've always enjoyed it.

[00:11:46] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so clearly some conflicts and unresolved feelings here, but, okay.

If he really enjoys it, at the end of the day, great.

[00:11:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: So when he told me that he didn't want me to meet up with a podcaster, I wasn't having it. I left the house knowing he was upset, but also confident that he would look back at it and be extremely turned on. Okay. I was right, but he must have been going through something I wasn't aware of because his jealousy took over.

He called many hotels and drove around trying to find me. I ignored most of his calls and had a delightful first meeting despite the meltdown my husband was having back at home.

[00:12:21] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, this,

[00:12:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: this

[00:12:23] Jordan Harbinger: poor guy dude.

[00:12:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: After reality settled in, I became afraid to return home, so I spent another night with a guy and returned home glowing.

I had the most magnificent time and couldn't hide it.

[00:12:35] Jordan Harbinger: Brutal. Again, if this is all in the up and up and this is what you both want, I have zero problem with it. That's just, there's something about this man that just makes me sad.

[00:12:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know it's tough. So she goes on, hubby was waiting for me with dinner prepared and a clean house.

He was upset, but he had calmed down by the second night. He was extremely turned on that I was so bad.

[00:12:55] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so maybe this works, but man, that's a lot of turbulence for some arousal. By the way, Gabe, is it just me or, I feel like we're part of this fetish right now. Like there's something going on here. You mean because like I'm having to read her words about how this felt.

Yes. When she, yes. Yeah, like he was waiting for me with a clean house. It just reads like something out of a magazine. I won't say which magazine, but there's a part of me that thinks she wrote this so that we would read it out loud and now they're like sitting there listening to it, enjoying it all over again.

Just a little personalized feedback Friday erotica. Exactly. This is a custom s muddy audio book read by Gabriel Mizrahi and Jordan Harbinger. That's what I think is going on.

[00:13:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, we should do this. There should be like a little side hustle and OnlyFans. Premium content. Premium content. Here.

[00:13:35] Jordan Harbinger: Gabe reads dirty letters that you all send to him.

Actually there's, this has legs. This idea, this,

[00:13:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: this might be, we should revisit this off air. I, uh, well, I definitely don't feel self-conscious about reading the rest of this letter. Thank you for that. So she goes. Bring us home, Gabriel. We're not even close, bro. Oh, we have a very tame life. And I think he liked the drama.

Interesting. So I'm confused, Jordan, was this excitement or was this drama?

[00:13:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, because those are definitely two very different things.

[00:14:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: We talked about it at length and he agreed to let me continue to see podcaster with one stipulation. I had to record some videos for a SPAN bank.

[00:14:10] Jordan Harbinger: Well, side note, Gabe, this just reminded me of something that happened to my friend like a decade ago.

I

[00:14:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: totally thought you were saying Side note, Gabe. Uh, you owe me some videos for your SPAN Bank?

[00:14:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, for the Span Bank. Yeah. So my buddy before, he's married now happily, but he was on the dating apps. He came through one of these programs that I used to teach about dating and stuff, and he, he met this girl on Tinder or whatever and things went really well.

Mm-Hmm. And he's like, she's on her phone a lot. She took like a ton of videos and it was a little bit of a turnoff, but the date went really well. And then they went back to his hotel. I guess he was traveling. I can't remember. And they hooked up and he's like, while hooking up, like going at it, she like wanted to leave the light on.

And he's like, well this is weird, but okay, like whatever you want. And then she set her phone up at an angle and he was like, this is just weird. So he heard something coming from the phone or somehow got attention drawn to the phone. Oh. And he ended up looking at it and it turned out that she was FaceTiming her boyfriend or husband or whatever while they were hooking up in this hotel room.

And the reason she was taking all the videos and the photos was they were doing this like coupled fantasy where she goes out with other guys and like rubs it in his face the whole time and like shows him what's going on in real time. That was like their thing. Wow. So my friend was like, yo, not okay.

Filming me without my consent. Cool. Yeah. I was about to ask,

[00:15:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: she did not run that by him in advance, right?

[00:15:34] Jordan Harbinger: No. No. That it, it's weird 'cause it's sort of. I get that it's their thing, but they're victimizing other people while doing it, which is not, not okay. Okay. Of course. So

[00:15:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: creepy.

[00:15:45] Jordan Harbinger: And I don't know. Is that part of it or is that they're just like, don't know how to meet people who are into that, so they just decide to like, do it in a tricky way.

I don't know if it's part of it that they're victimizing someone else, but it's a little, it's obviously beyond the pale. Like I don't care what you do in your personal time, but don't rope somebody in who thinks they're on a date with you. And it's like just weird. A weird fetish. That's not cool. No,

[00:16:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: that's like some weird offshoot of low key revenge p*rn or something.

I don't know what call that it's, but it's weird. Yeah,

[00:16:09] Jordan Harbinger: I, I'm sure that this is vi falls under sexual assault in some way. I, I don't really know exactly what this would be, but you're right. Moving right along.

[00:16:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Okay. What a weird story. Sorry for your friend. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Not cool. So she goes on a couple months later Covid happened and we took a break.

But podcaster and I found a way to continue seeing each other about once a month in 2020 and 2021. He expressed many times his love for me. I was flattered. Both my marriage and my side arrangement survived Coronavirus, and everything seemed to be going great. We were convinced our open marriage instilled honesty, trust, and boundaries, making us couple goals.

Then the following year, I found out that my husband was having his own emotional affair with another woman, as well as other secrets he didn't share with me. Meeting up with podcaster was exciting, but it was something that I enjoyed bringing home to share with my husband. When he began this other relationship, I wasn't able to have the same in return.

No pictures, no videos. Turns out after 15 years together, he was preparing to leave me for this woman because she wanted kids and I didn't want any at the time, and it was just easier for him. I decided to end things with my husband. I have no regrets. I'm learning to find myself. The separation changed a lot of my relationships, including the relationship I had with the podcast host.

It wasn't as exciting anymore. I had no one to come home to and share it with. And it seems he expected more of me. Once I was separated, he questioned whether I still liked him and found him attractive. Why it took so long for me to respond. He was accusatory, which is not something I'm used to.

[00:17:38] Jordan Harbinger: So this story is definitely not about you, Gabe.

No,

[00:17:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: definitely not. I'm the most low maintenance side piece ever.

[00:17:45] Jordan Harbinger: So if any low maintenance side piece, if anybody wants to slide into Gabe's dms, just know he will not be thirsty or accusatory. No, you'll probably have the opposite problem. In fact, definitely. And I say that with a high degree of confidence as his professional comet partner here.

[00:17:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Thank you for that. And what an endorsem*nt.

[00:18:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, dude, you're like a houseplant with ebbs.

[00:18:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is so accurate. Yeah, it was a big turnoff. So I ended it bordering on ghosted him. But two years later, we reconnected and met up for coffee. It was nice to see him. I didn't feel the same attraction that I once did, but we still cared for each other, so we made plans to meet up for a night.

He sends me selfies all the time. I think he expects me to gush over him like I used to because of his status. But I want different things. I want friendships. I want someone to call my own. I want more to have a chance of building something real

[00:18:37] Jordan Harbinger: wonderful. Hey, look, no shade to ethical, non-monogamy, but wanting meaningful, authentic, deep relationships.

That's a sign that you're growing.

[00:18:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. So she goes on, I expressed that to him and he had a temper tantrum. He asked if I even like him and said that I was being harsh, that I pulled the rug out from under him, that I let him on, which was unfair because this time around he initiated things with me. I know that reentering his life gave him hope that we would meet from time to time.

And I had hoped that I would feel the same way too, but I lost the attraction I once had. Then after a failed situationship ended with another guy, I decided I wanted someone familiar.

[00:19:14] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy, here. All right, third stop on the pain train, ladies and gentlemen.

[00:19:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: I decided that maybe I should give it another try with podcaster.

So we made plans to meet for one night. I felt his disappointment that we wouldn't be meeting for the whole weekend. He then asked me what changed, and I started to feel the same way I felt when I ghosted him the first time. This is so interesting, Jordan. I can't tell if she's turned off by his neediness and maybe his insecurity or by his kind of sincere expression of desire for her, you know?

[00:19:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That is a good question for her to ask herself. Either he's not reading the room and he is being super demanding, or he's saying, Hey, I really like you. You seem to like me too. What's the deal here? Right. And something in her is going, I don't like this. He's only attractive when he is hard to reach too,

[00:19:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: possibly.

Let's come back to that. Mm-Hmm. She goes on, I decided to cancel. I did not want this pressure.

[00:20:02] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. So maybe it's just the pressure or the expectations that turned her off. Mm-Hmm. But still, does that speak to her feelings about this particular guy or to some template of hers? Generally? That's what I wanna know.

[00:20:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, me too. I think I need to start looking forward instead of backward. I no longer wanna worry about other people's emotions when I need to protect my own. I'm being true to myself and trying to figure out what I want from the people in my life. I don't know if I'm up for this casual fling, even with someone I was once head over heels with.

Am I forcing this old flame? Signed a formerly poly chick trying to do the arithmetic on whether to carry on with this tricky sidekick.

[00:20:39] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh. Okay. What a journey. Thank you for sharing so much with us. This is a really fascinating glimpse, not just into ethical, non-monogamy, but also into two very interesting partners, how ex-husband and podcaster both brought out different sides of your personality, how you functioned in all this, in this, uh, poly cue, Gabe, is that, is that the right use of this term?

I think so. How those hokas fitting over there, Papa, I never feel more uncool than when I'm like, what is it the, hello. How do you do fellow kids? Wait, do we have that sound bite somewhere? Hold on. How do you do fellow

[00:21:13] Clip: kids? What?

[00:21:15] Jordan Harbinger: So yeah, that's how I feel when I'm trying to figure out new words. When I get it right, y'all.

I sound lit. Anyway, those hocus are nice and snug. I'm gonna go for a nice brisk walk around the neighborhood after this. Yeah. Get my 10,000 steps in and thank the stars that I don't have to deal with the stress of an open marriage. My God. So look, you've shared a lot here and we only have so much time, so I'm gonna cut to the chase.

I think it's over with this guy. You know that you're live narrating the decline of this relationship. Now whether things ended because podcaster was too needy or because it was only fun when you could tell your husband about it, or because it's stressful to be with a partner who wants more than you can offer, or because you're evolving and you want a different kind of relationship now.

It just sounds like some combination of all those things. Actually, you've been on this carousel enough times to know how it works, how it makes you feel. If it generally doesn't make you feel good, if you and this guy can't talk and make progress in your relationship together, then yes, you're probably forcing an old flame.

But what I'd be curious to know is why does this old flame keep drawing you back? What function is this guy serving in your life? I mean, I know podcasters are ridiculously attractive people, but what besides that is going on here? At first, there was real excitement and attraction there, which is great. I mean, complicated with your ex-husband, obviously, but those are legit reasons to wanna date someone.

But over time, I get the sense it was more comfort and familiarity and loneliness that drew you to keep seeing him. And those are perfectly valid needs and feelings, but they're, yeah, they're not really a great reason to continue engaging with somebody that you're no longer crazy about. And you said you don't regret separating from your ex-husband.

You've experienced a lot of growth. Hey, I'm glad to hear that. But I do wonder if there might be some other parts of you that crave security and connection and you thought you might be able to find it in this guy and you kind of did and you kind of didn't, or it came at a cost. And I guess my thought there is you might just want to ask yourself why you are seeking those things out at this moment in your life and why you might not always be seeking them out from the right people.

If this extended fling from podcaster is any indication.

[00:23:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I think that's a really great question, Jordan. It's so fascinating how relationships are like mirrors, right? We date people and they reflect back to us everything our needs, our fears, our projections, our true wants at the end of the day. In a non-monogamous situation like this, there are multiple mirrors with multiple reflections.

I mean, these two guys podcast, or an ex-husband, to your point, brought out different aspects of her in another fascinating way. They were in a relationship with each other too, but at a distance. Right. Although they probably related to each other internally, I guess, in ways we can't really know, even if they weren't actually romantically involved.

But it seems like her ex-husband was necessary for her to enjoy the relationship with podcaster. She's asking, am I forcing this old flame? But I think the real question she's asking is, what do I do with all of this information that this side piece and my ex revealed to me?

[00:24:06] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. She's grown tremendously, but it feels to me like she's still wrestling with that growth.

She's still trying to catch up to it.

[00:24:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the sense I get too. The piece of her letter that might be the most important is when she said, I think I need to start looking forward instead of backward. I don't wanna worry about other people's emotions. I need to protect my own. I'm being true to myself.

I'm trying to figure out what I want from the people in my life.

[00:24:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there's so much going on in those three sentences, eh?

[00:24:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: So much so looking forward instead of backward. I mean, I guess yes to that, but with an asterisk. I think there's still a lot for you to understand and process from these two very significant relationships that you've had.

So I'm all for you talking about your experiences and trying to figure out what they were designed to teach you and how you showed up and them, all of that. But to Jordan's point a moment ago, I am hearing that this relationship with this guy has probably run its course. And unless you or he make some huge breakthrough in understanding each other or maybe adjusting your expectations, I'm not sure you should be going back to the past, but why you felt compelled to go back there is still a very good question now about not wanting to worry about other people's feelings.

Needing to protect your own again, yes, to protecting your own feelings. You're responsible for you, and it does sound like you're at a point in life where, yeah, you're prioritizing yourself and I think that's probably appropriate and healthy to a certain degree. I totally understand. Not wanting to worry about someone else's feelings, especially when you're not actually that passionate about that person.

I get it. That's an awful position to be in, and in my experience, it's usually a sign that it's time to redefine the relationship or put it to bed, but in the larger context of your story, not wanting to worry about other people's feelings. That is a very interesting theme because that's not just true of podcaster.

I also heard that in the way you responded to your ex-husband when he had reservations about you getting involved with this guy. That night he had that meltdown. While you guys were together, you went off. You had this super exciting experience, which you had to push him to let you do. Meanwhile, he was left alone with his conflict and his hurt and his jealousy, his fear, his anger, all of that.

[00:26:08] Jordan Harbinger: And those were so severe that he, what did he like? Called hotels and literally drove around trying to find you so he could stop you or pretend stop you. I mean, what

[00:26:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: a scene. It's so intense. And even when you knew he was having a meltdown, you said you ignored most of his calls. You enjoyed this very stimulating evening.

You were afraid of coming home, so you stayed another night. Knowing your husband was really suffering. Now you justified that by pointing out that he always seems to be grateful afterward. And on some level, that does seem to be true. And look, your ex-husband had a responsibility to draw a line here and say, no, this is, I'm not okay with this if he wasn't comfortable with all of it.

So this is not all on you. But even if that's true, it doesn't sound to me like you were always very respectful of his feelings, very attuned to them. And when his feelings were at odds with your desires, you know, when his feelings were inconvenient, basically you had a very interesting response, which was, well, first of all, to convince him to not put too much stock in them and to not limit your freedom because you know, hey, we're ethically non-monogamous, and you always enjoy this too.

You get off on it as well. So you're gonna be happy. And when that failed, your response was to kind of simply disregard his feelings and do whatever you wanted anyway.

[00:27:18] Jordan Harbinger: Which, by the way, I am clearly not an ethical non-monogamy expert. But at that point, doesn't it stop being ethical, non-monogamy and start becoming, I.

Unethical, non-monogamy.

[00:27:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's my understanding. Because the two people in this relationship are not freely consenting to the same terms. Right. She's having to twist his arm a little bit

[00:27:37] Jordan Harbinger: or a lot of, bit kinda. Or from the sound of, I mean, the guy drove around looking for her. That doesn't sound like he was like, uh, fine.

Do you?

[00:27:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: But what's fascinating about their dynamic is that he did on some level, enjoy these encounters of hers. Yeah. And they found a way to make it work kind of for both of them. And it sounds like it was part of his fetish slash kink somehow too.

[00:27:56] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. It's like those guys that their woman cheats, right?

And then they come home and they find the guy and they like chase him outta the house. But it's part of the whole thing. Like they're into it. He's not mad at her afterwards, but the other guy's like running jumps out the window with his cowboy boots on, how do we make that work for us? Right. But even that is complicated because it's like, was he into the cuckolding and hot wife stuff again?

I gotta Google that because he was actually into it. Or was that fetish? A way to

[00:28:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: like transform his legitimate feelings into something else so he could like live with them basically.

[00:28:27] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Is he sublimating again, I have no idea if that word applies. Is he channeling, let's say, his hurt and his shame into some fetish that makes them quote unquote fun when really there are very deep and complicated feelings underneath that are going unaddressed?

[00:28:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that is a really good question. Also, interestingly, it's a fetish that they both got to share, even though she was the one going off and having most of the fun, which might have allowed them to stay connected to each other, even when this affair with the podcaster was driving them apart.

[00:28:57] Jordan Harbinger: Then he goes off and has his own relationship with that other woman and he doesn't tell her.

Mm-Hmm. Which I think is very significant, right? Mm-Hmm. This is not like the other, his chance to do their fetish thing. It was totally different. 'cause they have this arrangement where everything's supposed to be on the table. Right. And everyone knows everything and everyone's consenting. But this is obviously not what happened with his relationship.

No. So by starting his own thing secretly, I do wonder, was he evening the scales a little bit. Even though it was outside the rules. Was he getting back at our friend here? A little.

[00:29:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Like a tit for tat. Like you did this, now I get to do this kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe he was asserting some autonomy after being put through the ringer here.

Co. And some independence. Yeah.

[00:29:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm not just as cook who's gonna sit back while you hurt my feelings, even though I totally agreed to this whole arrangement, I can do things too. Exactly.

[00:29:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: I am sure there was a lot going on for him in that other relationship. And who knows, maybe he and that other woman really connected and offered something meaningful to each other.

Maybe they are the right match. I don't know. I would be curious to know if they're still together and where, where they are now. But look, what I'm getting at is this. Not wanting to worry about other people's feelings is a very rich area for you to explore, because obviously it's a theme for you. It happened with your ex-husband, and also it kind of happened with podcaster.

It happened when he started being more honest with you about what he wanted, and then you pulled away and it happened when you ghosted him instead of formally breaking up with him.

[00:30:09] Jordan Harbinger: Definitely some avoidance there. I mean, that's literally what ghosting is.

[00:30:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think it also happened when he reacted to you treating him more casually.

You called that a temper tantrum. I would be curious to know if it really was a tantrum or if maybe it just felt that way to you. Hmm. And he felt that you were being harsh and careless with him. You said that was unfair because that time around he initiated things with you, which, look, I see what you're getting at.

But that doesn't mean that you didn't surprise him and possibly hurt him in the way that you responded or didn't respond to his very honest feelings about how much he liked you. Look, it's perfectly fine to go through stages of life where you wanna be selfish. You want to keep things casual, that's okay.

Like you said, you're trying to figure out what you want from the people in your life, and you should, but not wanting to worry about other people's feelings ever. Not wanting to be appropriately attuned to the experience of a partner or a friend or family member. That's a different thing. I do wonder if other people's feelings, especially the feelings of a romantic partner, are challenging for you.

I get the sense that they can scare you a little bit sometimes. Maybe you don't feel up to the task of holding those feelings for somebody else or even making room for them, or maybe it's hard for you to factor them into your decisions in a way that doesn't feel limiting, doesn't feel controlling. So that's what I would explore right now because yes, being true to yourself is important.

Knowing what you want, obviously crucial, but knowing what other people want from you, what they deserve from you, what they can expect from you reasonably based on the terms of your relationship, and just like being respectful and available to other people given the nature of your relationship. That's really important too.

And until you learn how to do that, you might run into these same conflicts again and again in the future.

[00:31:48] Jordan Harbinger: It's really interesting. In a way, our friend here is brave slash bold. Mm-Hmm. She's courageously seeking out these experiences, unconventional, meaningful stuff, and she's just willing to risk a lot.

She's bumping up against people along the way. Mm-Hmm. But then it, it, when it comes down to like the authentic, vulnerable, deep stuff. Mm-Hmm. Like real relationships with these people taking 'em seriously, staring their feelings in the face and going, wow, I see that you're hurt or scared or angry, or you want more from me, whatever that is.

Mm-Hmm. I think that scares the crap out of her. Or she might just not have met the person that she wants to do that stuff with yet. And that if that's, look, that's fair. If that's the case. But if that's what she truly wants, which she says she does, she's gotta confront this and grow, which means going back, however back you gotta go, childhood, whatever, while she moves forward.

So look, I hope you get to do that my friend. And if you ever wanna holler at another podcaster, once your EQ bumps up a viewpoint, please

[00:32:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: don't. Why do you have to go there? Don't do it.

[00:32:42] Jordan Harbinger: Gabe's dms are definitely open is all I'm saying. My hos are taken.

[00:32:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: I knew, I knew you were gonna say that. Uh, not the Hoka part, but the part directing it to me.

I don't know. I'll have to see if this poly of ours can accommodate one more person. TBD on that.

[00:32:55] Jordan Harbinger: Actually maybe take a break from podcasters for a little while. Yeah. As you're learning, we're all a bunch of needy love starved attention whor*s. Yeah. Even Gabe, who has about as much drama in his life as a geranium.

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[00:35:45] Jordan Harbinger: thank you for listening to and supporting the show. It is your support of our advertisers that keeps the lights on around.

It keeps me in stylish new HOAs. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable. Over at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday.

[00:36:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, next up. Hey guys. I run a clothing company and I have a local competitor who's been imitating my hard work.

He uses my creative efforts as a template to just copy and expand from. He copies every little detail from product and logo design to the wording on wash instructions and warranty repairs, and I've put an immense amount of thought into these details to make them stand out. He actively reaches out to groups I've worked with in the past.

The About Us section on his website even reads like he copy pasted mine and edited from there. I also find him to be dishonest and greenwash and know that customers are getting duped by his quote unquote sustainability play. The worst part is that he advertises himself as being the first one on the block, which is inaccurate, and customers simply take his word for it.

I feel like this makes me look like the copycat.

[00:36:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that is infuriating. I feel bad for you. That would be so annoying.

[00:36:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: I've been trying so hard to ignore him and have been focusing on creating new product designs. I don't wanna openly sh*t on him, but it feels like he's not acting in the spirit of small business.

I'm so frustrated by his imitation game and annoyed that our customers get our brands confused. I absolutely love what I do and passionate about the mission and have put so much hard work into making this thing successful. But this whole BS with the company up the road is ruining this for me. Any tips on navigating the situation?

Signed tired of putting on a smile while this dude is straight jocking my style.

[00:37:31] Jordan Harbinger: As I said before, I totally get why this is so frustrating. You obviously put a lot of love and thought into your product and then some jabi down the street comes along, copy, paste, and then rewrites it with chat GPT, and then tells everybody he was there first and these are his ideas.

I would be angry too. It's funny, Gabe, in a way, this is a huge testament to her work. Mm-Hmm. It's a compliment, really. Right, right. By copying her, he's tacitly admitting that she does a lot of things really well, and he can't do them himself, but in another way, it's a dirty move. Oh, absolutely. It's pretty disrespectful.

And like she said, not really in the spirit of small business, I'll tell you that.

[00:38:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: I found that common, especially interesting because I know what she means. Small businesses are supposed to be wholesome and collaborative, and there's this feeling of we're all in this together, we can all win. Right. But the reality is they are competitors.

They're both apparel companies, selling clothes on the same block, apparently very similar clothes. So I'm with her. This guy sounds squirrely and aggressive and frankly not very creative, but at the same time. I think what she's coming to terms with is she's playing by the small business philosophy of Kumbaya and let's all play nice.

And he's playing by the rules of the jungle, basically,

[00:38:34] Jordan Harbinger: right? Yeah. Well, he's unscrupulous, right? And he's kind of calling her bluff like, go ahead, let's see what you're gonna do about it. Right? Meanwhile, he's taking business away from her, or at least trying to. So look, if you wanted to, you might have some legal tools available to you here.

I'm not sure if you've copyrighted or trademarked any of your logo designs or product designs, but if you have, you could sue this guy for infringement. I mean, it's super expensive. You probably wouldn't really do that, but you could also send what's called a trademark infringement, cease and desist letter that might spook him enough to knock it off.

Now you'll probably need a lawyer for that. It wouldn't cost you too much money, but you, if you don't wanna hire a lawyer, and I understand that you can download cease and desist templates online, they're pretty boilerplate. Or you can ask chat GPT to write one for you and then pay a lawyer a fraction of their usual fee to look it over, give you notes, make adjustments, and most importantly, send it from their letterhead.

'cause if you send a cease and desist letter to me, I'm like, whatever. But if I get it from a lawyer, it's like, oh, they hired somebody. Different story. It's a lot scary. Yeah. By

[00:39:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: the way, our listener from the other week who asked whether AI was gonna make his legal consulting career obsolete is absolutely freaking out at your chat GBT pitch right now.

[00:39:36] Jordan Harbinger: That's right, that's right. I know I thought about him as I was saying that, but this is the world we live in now, man. Yeah. So the wording on the wash instructions, the warranty, the repairs, the About Us section on your website, that might not be as defensible and enforceable, and I'm sure it's got like relatable, cool language in it.

I get it. This was never really my area of law, but my sense is that that more functional language is gonna be harder to protect than an image or a design. And I am just not sure how much energy I'd spend trying to get this guy to stop copying that stuff. Yeah, it's annoying. Yes, it stings. But I'd let that stuff roll off your back more than the more meaningful design theft.

So yeah, like ignore it and do better, but dark Jordan wants to pitch some solutions, please. I'm so excited to hear these. What do you have? You could create an anonymous website where you write about this guy's shady practices, the fake sustainability play, but he's probably slash possibly gonna know it's you.

And it can really be easy to track a website back to somebody. So you gotta make sure you have like domain privacy and all that stuff. But you could consider hiring somebody on Fiverr to leave like 75 or 750 negative reviews on his business, on Trustpilot, Yelp, wherever sort of these places are graded.

This is clearly unethical. This could blow up in your face. It is likely illegal depending on how you go about this. If he sells the T-shirts through his own website, not much you can do. But if he uses an e-commerce platform for his business, a web hosting company, stuff like that, you could tell those vendors that he's ripping off your designs and lying about his sustainability practices and then point them to all of those fake reviews as reinforcement.

You could also send them cease and desist letters because they are hosting your copyrighted content. You're essentially copyright striking his website and e-commerce pages. But again, using fake reviews to make your case is very dodgy. Sending cease and desist letters to suppliers and vendors is less dodgy.

So look, right now, this guy is a dirty competitor, a thorn in your side. He's the enemy, basically. But he might also be pushing you to grow because one way he might be pushing you to grow is by forcing you to continue innovating and serving customers in a way that he cannot copy. I. For example, he might be able to steal your logo or your T-shirt design, but he obviously can't come up with more original designs or take care of customers the way you do or run your business with the spirit that you do.

[00:41:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. People who shamelessly steal other people's work rarely have the discipline, the resourcefulness, the thoughtfulness to run a business. Well, it's beyond them.

[00:42:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, for sure. He might be clever or efficient in certain ways, but I doubt somebody like this is gonna, I don't know, take amazing care of a customer and seamlessly handle their return and treat their employees with kindness and passion.

You can, you are the gal who obsesses over the wording on your warranty policy, on your return policy. So you're probably a dream business owner to deal with. You know, your vendors like you, your customers love you. The other way this guy is pushing you to grow is by forcing you to decide what to focus on, where to spend your time and energy.

I, as you can imagine, have dealt with so many annoying people over the years. So many shady competitors, especially when I was in the training and coaching industry. And I'm telling you, obsessing over the ways that they're screwing you, not a good use of your resources. In fact, one of my old business partners, that's what all he thought about.

He was always obsessed with, uh, with other people. He never really produced anything because he was always playing defense. And look, it's not gonna make this guy stop. It's gonna distract you from all the valuable stuff that you could be doing if you let this guy occupy too much of your attention. If you'd let him make you angry and scared, then do in a really messed up way.

He's winning. And that might even be what he wants. Something I've really had to learn over the years, and it took me a while to realize how you allocate your mental, emotional resources, what you choose to care about, basically, that is such a crucial part of being a business owner, because as you have all heard a million times, there's only so many hours in a day and so many things require your attention.

So you have to be disciplined. You've built a beautiful brand here. You've built it with love, built it with care, creativity, a generous spirit. Keep leading with those qualities and trust that they will win out in the long term. 'cause at the end of the day, the stuff other people can easily copy, that's usually the least meaningful part of what you do and maybe part of your job right now is to keep finding the things that he can't copy and keep investing in those.

Just one more way that this Yahoo might end up serving you in a strange way. And look, we're rooting for you. Good luck. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox.

Your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors are eaves dropping on your therapy sessions through the wall. Or your teenage niece's pregnant with her grandfather's child. You heard me right? Can't stop thinking about that one from last week, Gabe. That one was just horrific. Ah, so sad. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter. We bit wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from me to you delivered straight to your inbox once a week. So if you wanna keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out.

You can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news. Alright, next up.

[00:44:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. Four years ago I started dating a 3-year-old guy who represented himself as an entrepreneur. I was 20 years old living with my parents, and I desperately needed to live alone so I could grow up. Although my parents discouraged me from spending the extra rent money, then this guy showed up.

And being a naive young lady, I moved into his flat. I spent a few hours in the kitchen every day, made sure he always had dinner ready, cleaned, did his laundry, all while having a nine to five job. He bought a dog without me knowing, and the poor thing was shut away in his office every day. So I became his mother and dog walker.

I even let my boyfriend, all my savings,

[00:45:25] Jordan Harbinger: oof. I do not like where this is heading.

[00:45:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: After three months, I started to have a weird feeling when he came home late after work sometimes he was euphoric and barely looked me in the eye. Hmm. Is he a podcaster by any chance? I was just

[00:45:39] Jordan Harbinger: thinking the same thing. I was just thinking, man, that would be amazing.

One of my dreams is to receive two letters from two people in the same situation. I know. And hear the story from each of their perspectives. Oh, that would be so fun.

[00:45:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: We gotta make that happen. Somehow. Put our heads together. So she goes on. I ignored my intuition, but got angry. He was surprised when he needed to heat up his dinner himself and became angry when I didn't wash his clothes.

Man, child. Interesting. So she didn't want to come right out and say, I think you're cheating on me. But she kind of retaliated in all these little ways. Hmm.

[00:46:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The message is, I'm mad at you, but I don't wanna say anything. You're just gonna have to figure it out when you pick up your underwear. And it's still got streaks on it from last week.

So gross imagery, why I'm,

[00:46:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm mad at you as one message, and the other message is, stop taking me for granted. For sure. And

[00:46:23] Jordan Harbinger: the third message is you need to get a bidet. Truly, I think it

[00:46:27] Clip: says,

[00:46:27] Jordan Harbinger: I

[00:46:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: think

[00:46:28] Jordan Harbinger: it says a lot about both of them actually, the way that this was

[00:46:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: handled. His weird time management and work trips became more frequent.

Sometimes I couldn't eat. My cortisol levels spiked. When he fell asleep in bed next to me, I needed to know the truth. I shouldn't have, but I got into his phone. He was texting girls and having fun on dating sites.

[00:46:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that tracks also should you really not have you knew he was cheating. I mean you, you know, whatever.

You got confirmation.

[00:46:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: I told him I considered this cheating and left. Good, well done. He then sent me several, I'm sorry, you messages and photos of him crying, including photos of the dog and how it's sad I'm not there.

[00:47:06] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, such manipulative bullsh*t. And also completely performative. Obviously.

[00:47:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: The next weekend I was back, no.

Shortly thereafter during a sleepless night, I looked at his phone again and you can imagine what I found. So I started an account on a sex site as well. And did the same thing he did, just so I could feel better. Oh boy. This is bananas.

[00:47:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. What a pair, huh? I wanna be compassionate because I know she's young and naive by her own admission.

Mm-Hmm. We all do immature stuff in our twenties, but this is highly dysfunctional. Highly. I'm gonna shag a bunch of strangers from the internet that'll show you to sag a bunch of strangers from the internet. Yeah.

[00:47:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Come on. Well, I think we're hearing from somebody who didn't know how to respond, of course, in the ideal way at the time.

So she goes on then one night at a party sitting on a window sill smoking cigarettes. I asked him why he was still cheating, and he didn't have an answer. He just lied over and over again. So I asked him again and again in a calm voice that made him angry. He grabbed my neck and started to choke me, tipping me out of the window.

Wow. I grabbed the window frame and dug my nails into his face so he couldn't push me out.

[00:48:14] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. That is terrifying.

[00:48:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: That escalated into a horrible fight. I took his car keys and sat behind the wheel to calm down and go to the police. But on the way I caused a car accident.

[00:48:27] Jordan Harbinger: What ho? Wow. A car accident on the way to see the cops after he tried to strangle you and throw you out of a window.

[00:48:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Cool. Lifetime movie we're hearing about here. Geez. Yikes. So she goes on, no one was injured or killed, thank God. They took me to the hospital and police station where I filed a criminal complaint for injury to health. What a night that was. But two months later we got together again because of the good times we had in bed.

[00:48:53] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh. Okay. Well I'm losing sympathy for you at this point.

[00:48:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sometime after I found a good guy. So it was easy to get away from this manipulator,

[00:49:02] Jordan Harbinger: huh? Well, okay, look, I'm obviously glad you did, but interesting it took a new guy to get you to leave this old guy who tried to kill you. That's another piece of this that is yours to look at for sure.

[00:49:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: A year later I left Europe and moved to Canada to have a change of scenery and find who I was. I did EMDR therapy, started meditation and quit smoking, drinking alcohol, and taking party drugs. Well, amazing. That's great. I'm actually extremely proud of you for that. That sounds like a huge evolution.

Amazing. So she goes on. Eventually I found my current partner. Okay. Just to be very clear here, I don't know if this current partner is the good guy she left the bad guy for, or a totally new guy in the story, but either way, we've been together for two years. But no matter how much we love each other, I just can't get rid of the feeling that he would cheat on me or that he thinks about other girls.

I'm looking for red flags, but my partner doesn't have any. And that scares me the most because they can show up later. This has made me become a horrible person. I don't wanna have thoughts of cheating in my stable relationship. I wanna forgive my monster of a former partner, but it's never been so hard.

I know I'm gonna ruin the most important relationship of my life if I don't change.

[00:50:13] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. That right there, feeling like you're gonna lose something or someone really important if you don't grow, that's a really great place to get to. And I'm actually very heartened to hear you say that because now you have a really good reason to address this and you're ready.

So I just wanna commend you for grasping the stakes here and for your courage.

[00:50:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Is it possible to forgive someone who made you feel like a worthless, tiny person? What would you recommend I do? So I don't think all men are monsters. Signed, still scared, gasping for error, and a bit worse for where after getting out of this nightmare.

[00:50:47] Jordan Harbinger: Well, great questions and what a story. My God, you've been through a lot here. I obviously wanna say, look, I'm sorry you ended up in this relationship and that this guy treated you so poorly. He sounds awful and manipulative and you didn't deserve that. But another part of me is going, man, you needed to go through this to learn about a certain type of partner and to confront your own wounds, which you are already doing beautifully, and which I'm super proud of you for.

So yes, of course it's possible to forgive somebody who made you feel terrible about yourself, but I'm not entirely sure forgiving this guy is appropriate. I mean, he took you for granted. He cheated on you. He took your money, he manipulated you into coming back. But worst of all, let us not forget he assaulted you and almost threw you out of a window where you may well have died.

So I am not sure that this guy deserves your forgiveness. Most importantly, though, I, I just don't think forgiving him is necessary. You're looking for healing here, and you're looking for psychological freedom from this traumatizing relationship, and you're hoping that that'll come from forgiving him. So you can move on, but I'm just not sure how much that's gonna do for you.

Even if you could snap your fingers and forgive him, you'd still be left with this sort of post-traumatic response to your new partner. These painful memories, this lingering suspicion, whether you forgive your ex-boyfriend is kind of besides the point, in my opinion. Your second question, what to do? So you don't think all men are monsters?

I think that's the better question, and the answer to that is you need to continue your therapeutic process. You need to talk about this relationship and explore all of these feelings, the old ones with your ex, the new ones, with your current partner, including this paranoia and fear that you now have, and you need to do that with him, with a therapist, with close friends, with yourself.

Invite those experiences and feelings into your close relationships where you can hopefully process them. But the therapy piece, that is probably the most important part. I am thrilled to hear that you did EMDR. We hear great things about it. I hope it's reduced your trauma symptoms as it does for so many people.

But in your case, the deeper growth and healing you're looking for to stop viewing all men as monsters, you're probably gonna find that in a more dynamic therapy over a longer period of time. That isn't just about trauma symptom reduction specifically, but about that really primitive foundational stuff that led you into this relationship that's informing all of your experiences.

So I know I'm saying what we say so often on the show, but I would really encourage you, and I know this will surprise no one, to find a therapist who works in this way. And you know this man,

[00:53:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: and to Jordan's point a moment ago, what a great way to begin your work with a new therapist. I'm in a relationship with this amazing guy, but I can't really enjoy it because I'm still traumatized by my last relationship.

And if I don't get this right, I might lose him with the right therapist. A goal like that is gonna kick off some truly incredible work, and that work will be about your past relationship and this relationship, but it's also gonna end up being about everything. It's gonna end up being about you, and I think that's gonna be a very rewarding journey.

The other thing that this kind of therapy might bring up for you, interestingly, is the possibility of forgiveness for your ex. But if you get there, I think it's gonna be because you'll come to understand him a lot better, right? You'll come to understand the wounds and the patterns that drove him, and more importantly, you'll come to better understand the role that you played in that relationship, consciously, unconsciously, why you chose him, how you related to him, how sex functioned in your relationship, what you were trying to work out with this guy, especially given that you went back to him several times.

In my experience, when you get a really good handle on how you participated in a certain dynamic, it becomes a lot easier to forgive somebody who hurt you because then you see more clearly, okay, I was responsible for this. He was responsible for that. Now I, I can see more clearly where the lines are. So for example, you might never forgive your ex for almost throwing you out of a window.

How could you, right? It's horrifying. You could have died, but alongside that anger, that sense of justice, you might also be able to go, okay, but I chose to stay with somebody who didn't treat me well, and I now understand that I was enacting such and such pattern in our relationship. I was drinking, I was using drugs, I was going to sketchy parties, which is why I was sitting in that window in the first place.

Just to take one example from your story, if you do that work, you're gonna have the insights and the breakthroughs that you need. So if forgiveness is appropriate, you will be in touch with it eventually. If it's not appropriate or you're just not ready, you won't. Either way, you're going to be focused on something much more important here, which is your growth, your healing, your relationships with your new partner, with your family, most importantly with yourself.

I think an underdeveloped relationship with yourself at the end of the day, that's the root cause of all of these challenges. As an adult, I would start there,

[00:55:33] Jordan Harbinger: so I wish I could snap my fingers and make you trust men again, or tell you, go meditate for six months and read these books and you'll be good.

But that is just not how growth works. Meditate, read, obviously that's helpful, but wounds, they get healed in relationship, in action, so it's time to drag 'em into the light and dig into them. You've never been more ready or more equipped or sending you a big hug and wishing you and your new partner all the best.

You know it's a good replacement for your lazy, cheating, manipulative mess of an ex-boyfriend. Define products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Quince, so I'm gearing up for a boho wedding in Tbilisi, Georgia. Yeah, the country of Georgia, not the state.

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[00:58:36] Jordan Harbinger: If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable or entertaining in the least, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support the sponsors who make the show possible.

All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable over at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Or if you need a code, you can't find a code, you're wondering if we have a code, email meJordan@jordanharbinger.com. I will dig up that code for you. Yes, it is that important that you support those who support the show.

Now back to feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

[00:59:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 26 years old and I recently started my dream job as an officer in the Coast Guard. This has been a goal of mine since the age of 12, and after many applications I finally commissioned.

[00:59:22] Jordan Harbinger: Congratulations, man. That is super exciting. Wow.

Off to a running start.

[00:59:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: I've been in for seven months now and have deployed once already for a 60 day patrol on the ship I'm attached to. Wow. I love my job. It's great and extremely fulfilling. The problem is that my wife and I are both very family oriented. We both miss the great people we once saw every weekend, brothers, nieces, nephews, parents.

My fears are that people will forget us and great memories will be made without us. I fear that the kids we raise will not have the relationship my wife and I had with our families. I fear that our parents will pass while we're gone.

[00:59:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's tough. I mean, I, I think about that too. And my parents live across the street, so I, I get it, man.

[01:00:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Now that I'm in the Coast Guard, I can finally start applying for flight school if I get selected. My chances of being stationed close to home are slim as we relocate every two to three years. I feel that if I choose my career, I'll be putting that above my family and depriving my future kids of their family.

I'm seeing now that my dreams have flaws. Should I leave after my obligated service and return home, or should I achieve my ultimate goal signed, put my dreams in the backseat or climb to 30,000 feet?

[01:00:35] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Well, first of all, what you're describing is something that a lot of military families deal with, actually people in all fields that require this kind of sacrifice, but especially in the military, it's not an easy lifestyle.

It requires a ton of flexibility, and yet staying consistently close with your family, I think that does take a hit. And it sounds like that'll get even harder when you finally become a pilot. So it's not that your dreams have flaws, it's that your dreams have opportunity costs and opportunity costs.

They can be brutal. We just cannot have it all, all at the same time, and that's like a sad, distressing thing to accept. In your case, it's even more difficult because you have two very compelling values, staying closer with your family and chasing your dreams. And this is not just a job. You said you wanted to be in the Coast Guard since you were 12, which that is awesome.

By the way. How many of us can say we became the thing we wanted to do since we were 12? You love what you do. It's exciting, it's fulfilling. I know the feeling well, and it's a launching pad for your career as a pilot, which is gonna be so dope, and it's a great way to take care of your family too. So I, I really think you, you've hit a home run here.

I don't think the answer is to give up on your dream when you're lit up by something like this. You can't not do it. Then you're gonna live with a lot of regret and sadness, and that is worse. That's no good. So my first thought for you is start making peace with the tension of these two goals. What I've learned over the years is that opportunity costs, yes, they're frustrating, but they actually give your life more meaning because they remind you what truly matters to you, what you're willing to give up in order to get what you want.

So in your case, it'll probably mean less time with your extended family, at least for a little while, and that's gonna be painful sometimes. When you feel that pain, you can also go, this is how much living a life of purpose means to me for the next few years anyway. I'm putting my dream of flying first and I better stay connected to my passion for it.

I better put in everything I can and work my butt off and thrive in flight school because look at what I'm sacrificing to be here. In that way, you can make this opportunity cost work for you. You can use it to give your career more meaning. But while you do that, yeah, I would also use these fears to stay as close to your family as you can.

So let's get creative. What can you do to mitigate those risks? The ideas that come to my mind are scheduling weekly FaceTimes with your family, making it a ritual to text photos to the family group, chat to tell them how much they mean to you, and when your family responds, make sure you respond back.

You nurture the connections. Another good idea, you could write maybe a monthly newsletter type of thing or a blog. I know I'm going back to the nineties here to update everybody on you and your family's adventures in the Coast Guard Flight School, all that. I bet your family would love to read your stories, see your photos.

Here are your voice notes. Maybe most importantly, when you guys do see your family, make every moment count. Hug your parents extra tight. Tell 'em how much they mean to you. You're standing by the barbecue with your siblings. Be super present, be generous. Listen, share. Just soak it all up, man. And then when you're at the dinner table with everybody at Christmas, stand up.

Take a moment to tell everybody how much these get togethers mean to you. I'm choking up here, Gabe, by ch the chasing your dream is hard because it takes you away from them, but you love 'em. They matter to you. Every guy in the family's gonna make fun of you for this. Just let him do it again. Soak it in.

Those words are gonna be powerful, and your family's gonna hear that, and they're gonna go, damn, I need to be just as present and generous and connected with him as he's being with us. You're gonna lead by example something. I'm sure they're gonna teach you in the Coast Guard, by the way, that's gonna make all this easier too.

[01:04:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Man. I love those ideas. Jordan. I, I really think that's his only option because he has to pursue this dream. He has to, and the only option is to make it work for him and his family. Now, as for your big fear that your parents will die while you're away, I know that one hurts the most, and that's another big one that you might wanna make peace with.

I actually think you're gonna have to, because first of all, the reality is that they could pass away when you're close by too, and that is not going to be easy either. What matters a lot more is the quality of the time that you spend with them while they're here. Second, in my view, you cannot put your life on hold or give up your dreams for your family.

My feeling, and I realize that other people might disagree, other cultures see this differently, but my feeling is that we need to love and appreciate our parents, especially if they're good parents. Of course, I. Not sacrifice our entire lives for them. It's very easy to let your love for your parents, for the rest of your family to become a kind of caretaking.

It's easy to subordinate your life to their comfort, their needs. Now, unless those needs are profound, like they're sick or they can't live alone or whatever, then at your age, as you become a professional and a man, I think it's crucial that you individuate and build a life and a career that matter to you, and that will also take care of you and, you know, reward you, well pay you well, so you can support your family.

And yes, even your parents, if they ever need that. So yeah, that means risking that they might might pass away while you guys are living, say, across the country. And that's a really sad thought. But you might also wanna sit with that sadness, become a little friendlier with it, discuss it with your wife, and see how you guys want to factor that fear into your life decisions.

Also just because you fear that you're gonna be away while they die, that doesn't mean that you will. I mean, you might be right there with them. You might somehow end up being stationed near them. You might move them out to where you guys are. At some point, you just don't know what your life will look like.

So I would also try not to put too much stock in the worst case scenarios. Which as we all know, the mind loves to conjure up.

[01:06:02] Jordan Harbinger: I totally agree with that and I realize how easy it is for me to endorse this. My in-laws live just a few minutes away. My parents live across the street now. Jen and I are surrounded by our family, so I have it really easy.

But I can tell you for sure if my dream were to fly airplanes instead of talking into this microphone, you better believe I'd be moving to where the work is, South Carolina or whatever. And if being a pilot means moving around every few years, then I'd be helping my kids learn how to be flexible and make friends quickly and nurture their relationships in the same way.

So I hope that helps, man. I have a feeling your career's about to take off literally in a really exciting way, and that you're gonna bring a lot to this calling of yours that's gonna have ripple effects across your life with your wife, your kids, your whole family. And I think it's really important that they see their father chase his dream and excel at it.

And if you make the effort to love your parents, even when you're not always together in person. I think you'll find that this trade off won't be as painful as it seems. And if it is, hey, just accept. This is how life works. And part of our job is to kind of surrender to it and keep asking ourselves what really matters to us.

And that can change over time. Totally fair. But don't let it paralyze you or tie you up in knots too much right now, especially while you're laying the groundwork for what sounds like an amazing career. I'm wishing you the best, sending you and your tribe a big old hug. Hope y'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened.

Thank you so much. Go back and check out Constantine Sola about his escape from Putin's Russia and the fallout that he's dealing with right now. If you haven't heard that episode yet, the best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. That's the circle of people I know, like and trust.

I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in six minute networking. It is free. It is not gross. It is not schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform@sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes per day. This is the stuff I wish I knew 20 years ago. Dig that well before your thirsty folks.

Build relationships before you need them. It's all free@sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes on the website, Jordan harbinger.com. Advertisers deals, discounts, ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others.

Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with a retired chef that somehow infiltrated the illicit North Korean arms trade.

[01:08:45] Clip: There was a meeting where people can come and see how North Korea is the propaganda way. It was like three hours praising Kyil Ong by what he did for the country. When people ask me how is it to go to North Korea, well, it's quite difficult to describe because it's like your whole body is on overtime.

You know, you're being followed and what do I say and what do I do? How do I react to things? I'm going to the US to meet up with the CIA agent. I was like, wow. And I find out how the agent thinks. One of the most important thing he taught me was to be a perfect mo or undercover agent, is that you have to be 95% yourself and then 5% mold.

The last 5% is the one who observe. And I was really good to networking with people without people actually know. I was networking with them. Everything was recorded, so I just literally took the pants down on a whole regime exposing their women's program. It's a never ending story.

[01:09:49] Jordan Harbinger: For more on Hal Ulrich The Mole, a Danish chef and family man wound up working undercover in North Korea to expose its illicit arms trade, check out episode 527 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.